Courtney Pine - Trotskyite sympathiser
Can't say that jazz is really my thing, but this week's Socialist Worker is reporting that sax man Pine is playing at one of their benefits in December. That should set the coffee tables rattling in Islington.
Still, if this list is to be believed, one time Trotskyites encompass the fake Peter Hitchens, Gary Bushell and Prunella Scales. I'm astonished that she did not take a more internationalist stance towards the toiling masses in 'Fawlty Towers', and as for those supermarket adverts....
Still, if this list is to be believed, one time Trotskyites encompass the fake Peter Hitchens, Gary Bushell and Prunella Scales. I'm astonished that she did not take a more internationalist stance towards the toiling masses in 'Fawlty Towers', and as for those supermarket adverts....
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on Saturday, December 02, 2006 at 11:56 am.
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C
In future, instead of referring to
"the other Peter Hitchens" could you please refer to him as "the fake Peter Hitchens"?
It helps to avoid confusion.
Thank you
Consider it done.
I was somewhat surprised to see Irving Kristol, the godfather of neo-conservatism, in the list. The folly of youth...
trotskyites.. i believe are destined for the same fate as their beloved leader..
IT - Pretty comic, eh? Mind you, a lot of new right people were lefties...
TR - Not sure they deserve much more than sniggering, it isn't as though they pose any threat.
The Nazis were the "new right"
As were the Bolsheviks , socialism and mass murder go hand in hand.
State control (for your own good)followed by a bit of re-education for the recalcitrant then mass murder , Neo conservatism is no different.
Croydonian - Your right that they pose no real threat, but since Peter Hitchens is taking a dig at neo conservativism, let us think like Mr. bush who would say something like"let us eliminate the threat to ensure that the great institution of democracy prevails"
PH- 'agree with you on Socialism.
But not the Nazis. Ludwig von Mises correctly identified Nazi Germany as a socialist state.What specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936. Hardly, New Right principles. Nazism and socialism also emphasize revolutionary struggle for the sake of securing an apocalyptic end to the present "decadent" phase of world history.Hardly, New Right principles.
What an odd list .
PHITCH I `m confused now you see to hate Conservatives Socialists Commies and Nazis , that seem to leave the Liberal Party . Surely not . I would prefer you to admit you sucked the twat of a rat . I `m fastidious to the point of finicky on the point
Istanbul person , is IMHO half right about the Nazi party . It was not a Socialist party but as the state spread its power it looked similar. It was really the ultimate cooperate state with ultra close links between large industrialists and the party . These industries were allowed to get on with their job though which is why the economy was so productive. State interference was chaotic and intermittent . In fact the efficiency of the Nazis is , in general a myth . The efficiency of German Industry is not .
It has been theorised that such growth could only be sustained by a drift into wartime demand through stages of armament . What is noticeable is that the very small businessmen that the Nazis appealed to were ruthlessly cut out of the economy. To this day the industrial .state complex of power on the continent is a quite different thing to what we know here with few families controlling massive stakes . This is why European wide monopoly legislation is doomed. This is one of the main reasons the whole protectionist racket was set up …
On the various Nazi mythologies its like the stars . You can make any shape you want . Also like the bible or the suggestions of David Cameron
What are they up to ? Planning a coup d'tat? Cue C.....
newmania..
Nazi mythologies? Whats the myth? Since "you can make any shape you want" to quote you, I suppose then that they did not hate the jews.. nor torture them.. nor kill them.. I suppose all that is a myth too..
However I agree that german industry (even though under the Nazis) was one of the most efficient.. and if you look at the science journals of the time, it looks like they were ahead on the research as well..
newmania..
however on reading your article again and after having convinced myself that you are conservative (your name made guess otherwise.. apologies) I concur with what you have to say.. I have myself written an article under the heading 'thought provokes thought' (can be found on my blog), on perception although it delves more in philosophical and sociological rather than political issues.. please have a look at it and let me know your thoughts on it if you are interested in a philosophical point of view..
Tejus ramalammadingdong you have to be careful with those names
I must say that insulting my surname merely indicates your poor intellect as you are unable to come up with an adequate reply befiting that of an educated conservative.. but yet again, it takes all sorts to make a world I suppose..
Insulting ...oh blimey lighten up , I didn’t know it was your name. When I am insulting you , you will know it rambo. I have looked at your blog and I would recommend you visit a shrine to the cruel goddess "Brevity"
well, it seems that people such as yourself do not seem to acquire wisdom with age.. no point in making debate with a fool who refuses to see beyond his prejudices. Perhaps you may choose to learn from someone, who building on Aristole's original maxim, said "It is also the mark of an educated mind, to entertain a thought without letting his prejudices influence him."
Children, children....
Avoid the sin of pointless digression and insult and return yourselves forthwith to the issue at hand.
What specifically established de facto socialism in Nazi Germany was the introduction of price and wage controls in 1936
Samuel Brittan used to point to the First world war German economy run by Erich Ludendorff as the basis for Socialist Planning and Price Controls and the inspiration for men like Lenin.
In fact the German financial system was catastrophic from 1870 onwards with huge State spending and deficits allowing corporations like Siemens & Halske and AEG to expand building railways and lighting systems for a deficit-funded public sector.........which tried to santise itself by seizing Belgium coalmines and steel industries - rather as Saddam Hussein tried to fund his deficits by seizing Kuwait.
introduction of price and wage controls
introduced in both Britain and the USA - in fact J K Galbraith worked in the US Govt on Price Controls...........the creation of the Milk Marketing Board, Potato Marketing Board etc were direct interventions by the Chamberlain Govt to raise the price level.
It is sometimes forgotten that the 1930s were Deflationary after the Inflationary 1920s - consequently product prices had to be supported in order to stabilise the economy............and during wartime to sterlise excess purchasing powers which is why Britain developed PAYE Income Tax at this time
Price and Wage Controls are not in themselves a political ideology beyond that of the State seeking to regulate, whether in a democracy or a dictatorship
Voyager..
Your last comment about price and wage controls not being a political ideology in themselves is a point well put.
Quite so Istanbultory Hurree Jamset Ram Singh here might put a butt plug in his risible pontificating though , perhaps it’s a second language thing ?
Voyager- I `m not sure that you can put anything that was done in the 1930s outside the real of the political; I also do not understand what you mean by “sterilised“. It is hardly a surprise that the “depression” was deflationary (!) In what sense are you suggesting that increasing taxes was a cure for deflation ?
At this period in this country there was a shift from Adam Smith market economics towards Keynesian "style" ideas and although they do not have to be attached to a party it is not surprising that British Socialism found top down management of demand and strategic industry attractive ideas. They still do .This rather reminds me of Cameron’s claim that economic stability is an alternative to tax cuts which it is not . I see Gorgeous George , lifetime life avoider and Old Paulian was on "massage" this morning in tedious fashion . I don’t strongly object to this.
The Brownian motion by which Cameron slid out of the tax/stability opposition lie ,..ie by dragging in extraneous material on the national debt , was chilling.
A Brownian Motion isn’t a bad description of the mist of deliberately obfuscating twaddle that is Gordo`s super power.It is sad to see the Cons joining in.
N - TR had said that his post was something he'd written for his course. Anyway, can we keep it civil, plase?
Returning to the Nazis, I have had much fun reeling of parts of their manifesto to people who call members of the respectable right 'Nazis' etc. Here is a link to their '33 manifesto.
Note in particular:
That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.
Nothing a free market liberal (classic sense) would approve of there. While there is plenty in the programme that would upset socialist sensibilities too, the corporatism of Nazism and Socialism makes them awfully close relatives, and to me is part of the same delusion that the state can, and indeed should, involve itself in every area of human existence.
croydonian..
Excellent reply... Have written a small review about your blog on my site//
On another note I believe in a minimalistic state.. however I belive that moral policing and economic freedom must be the staple diet of a society that wishes to progress whilst at the same time retaining family values.. etc..
"Tejus"
Are you sure that shouldnt be "Tedious" ?
you come across as a self regarding boring little shite , hopefuly when you are an adult and have had sex with somebody other than yourself you will lighten up a bit.
Newmania,
You could demonstrate a little more sensitivity. There was no need to raise the distresssing issue of butt plugs. Foul implements as they are...
Hitchens.. Old man..
be assured that I am having more fun at uni than you probably are having.. must be a fast life.. drinkin with old geezers at your local.. I forgive for your envy..
but.. lol.. yes, I do need to lighten up a little, the impending exams are making me into 'boring little shite'..
"old man" ???
if you are having such a wild time at "uni"
wtf are you doing incessantly posting on political blogs?
Tosser!
Come on people. In the words of Rodney King, 'can't we all just get along?'. Please.
hitchens..
As i said my impending exams have made me boring and my incessantly posting on political blogs is a direct result of that..
croydonian..
my apologies..
Newmania you may not be familiar with European history so let's give you a refresher...........in Britain economic policy changed in 1921 to one of suppressing inflation which led to deflation, especially after the 1925 return to the Gold Standard. The General Strike and later the Invergordon Mutiny were results of policies of enforcing nominal pay cuts to compensate for the overvalued exchange rate and government budget problems as evidence in the May Committee.
During WWII British factories were running 24-hour production and employing women, but since there was little to buy off-ration it was necessary to mop up the surplus demand through POst-War Credits to reduce inflationary impact. PAYE - or pay as you earn Income Tax was trialled in 1940-41 and introduced in 1944.
The situation in Germany was different - they had inflation postwar which became hyperinflation when in 1923 Belgium and France occupied Rhineland and Ruhr and fomented a General Strike which destroyed Germany industrial output.
The deflation was savage after 1925 when the Rentenmark was introduced as a new currency and much worse after 1928. The Hitler regime inflated the economy by its use of Mefo credits to fund war production and throughout the Third Reich the problem of suppressed demand had to be managed by such tricks as taking pre-payments for VW Beetles but not supplying, and using the Social Security Budget to pay for autobahns.
The US was a different situation with a huge credit boom after 1919 with the huge trade surplus the US had with the West Europeans and the large loan book it had with Europeans. The Fed has a policy of pegging US interest rates to facilitate European repayment of debt which was 40% British public spending until it defaulted because neither Russia nor France had repaid loans to Britain.
Following the death of Benjamin Strong in 1928 as head of the Federal Reserve, interest rates were raised to curb speculative excesses and thus precipitated margin calls for stock and the collapse of some US banks.............the effect in Europe was for the Kreditanstalt Wien to fold and pull down the Danat in Germany which was being supported by loans from the Reichsbank and the Bank of England.
These collapses caused currency runs as France pulled funds from London and sought gold.
The Deflation was self-evident until the outbreak of war; and even the first months of the New Deal were deflationary in the USA - it was not until arms orders for Britain started flowing that the US economy ceased to deflate.
As for Keynesian economics - that is trite. The General Theory was published at Keynes' expense in 1936 with him paying Macmillan 3d for every copy sold at a price of 5 shillings so it would get a wide audience.
Some of the proposals were already being followed in Sweden, but could not be in Britain because Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England would not permit an accommodating monetary policy and had pushed Churchill to go back to the Gold Standard.
Devaluation in 1931 made monetary policy more flexible but Montagu Norman was still obstructive (he was the real reason the Bank was nationalised in 1945).
A close reading of The General Theory shows that Keynes did not envisage State spending as a pancea - that was Nicky Kaldor and Joan Robinson. Keynes point was Expectations - that by accelerating orders for ships or other goods consumed by the Govt public sentiment could be influenced.
The decision in 1936 to underwrite the cost of the PV-12 Project at Rolls-Royce (PV = Private Venture)for development of the Merlin engine was one such way of influencing expectations as too was the decision to fund Robert Watson Watt of the National Physical Laboratory to work on his radar - or to buy new monoplane fighters for the RAF - all decisions made by Chancellor of the Exchequer Neville Chamberlain.
Thus the whole issue of trying to apply labels to ongoing events is a bit farcical. Events required solutions not dogmas. Dogmas held solutions at bay. If Hitler could issue Mefo Credits and build battleships like Tirpitz and Bismarck and aircraft carriers like Graf Zeppelin balanced budgets were no defence.
At this period in this country there was a shift from Adam Smith market economics
Adam Smith was the son of a Customs Officer who studied Moral Philosophy at Balliol and Glasgow and observed a few basic manufacturing processes - if you want to wax lyrical i suggest you read Mandeville's Fable of the Bees which precedes Smith.
In the Twentieth Century names like Jevons, Pigou were more relevant than the observations of Adam Smith who has simply become a pin-up boy for the Right just as Karl Marx was for the Left. It was the Buxted Chicken man who started this craze with his IEA was it not ?
Marx was after all a classical economist following in Adam Smith's footsteps, for Marx, like Smith and Ricardo believed in the Labour Theory of Value which is the cornerstone of Das Kapital.
Marx was so mainstream that it took later generations of economists to dispose of the Labour Theory of Value
Voyager..
a most accurate clarification.. I must say.. but I must say Adam Smith did have a little more credibility for his opinions than did Marx (when they were alive)..
Voyager - Thank you for the lengthy posts. The labour theory of value is the purest bunkum, as a few second's thought will confirm. As one of my tutors at university was fond of quoting, "I could labour all day making buttons out of cod fishes' eyes, but I would not be creating value" (Or words along those lines). He also noted that there was an enormous caveat in 'Kapital' where Marx concedes that labour only has value if it is in demand, thus demolishing his own stance.
croydonian..
where did u pick that word 'bunkum' up? Most interesting, please do say..
voyager..
I have written a comment on cranmers turkey topic in reply to what you said and I am most certain that you will have something to say regarding it..
TR - here goes:
Etymology: Buncombe county, N.C.; from a remark made by its congressman, who defended an irrelevant speech by claiming that he was speaking to Buncombe
: insincere or foolish talk.
sorry.. did not clarify myself..
I know what it means and the context it first came about it in.. I found it interesting because the only other person I have heard it been used by(and often I must add) is by an Indian newspaper proprietor and an Indian politician both known for their horse racing pursuits .. hence it caused me to wonder whether you knew or were familiar with any of them.. thats all.. but thank you for your quick response..
It is a very Indian English sounding word, even if it hails from elsewhere, isn't it?
When I'm trawling through Indian news sites, I often marvel at quite how florid and expressive Indian English is. A couple of months back I was ruminating on Musharaff dubbing the supposed threat by the Pentagon to bomb Pakistan "back to the stone age" as "a very rude remark".
I am more than a little fascinated to see how China will play the enormous debt mountain the USA has built up , The Chinese have provided the value the Americans have provided paper promises.
If the day ever arrives (as I suspect it will)that the rest of the world decides to start pricing gold and oil in a currency other than the Dollar then America is fucked.
To our younger posters "Fucked" is a term first coined by the late Milton friedman whilst holding JK Galbraith in a headlock and knocking his lights out , as in "you're fucked sunshine"
Now that would have been worth seeing. Maybe 'Extreme Economist Wrestling' could be the TV hit of the season.
People woulda paid good money to see Hayek hold Von Mises in an upside-down facelock.Or to see Schumpeter administer a top-rope backflip to Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk.
I note that the conservatives have turned into wwf fans (pun intended).
"and it's a smackdown to Friedman as Keynes bites the canvas".
Jesse ventura could kick Mervyn Kings ass in a smackdown.
I am remonded of that Monty Python sketch where philosophers play football
btw
"remonded" is a real word.
Voyager have you noticed that regurgitating your course clears the room ?Most people do at some point tempting though it may be ;please take this as kindly advice. You may wish to retain some friends.
I think you are suggesting that the relationship between economic theory and political theory over time has been complex and counter institutive. Good cure for insomnia but no doubt you are right , if that is what you are saying . ?
I think it is unreasonable to quote wartime examples as if they were relevant when they clearly are not but anyway I would be interested to know if you think any of this has implications for policy now. In particular the claim of the C`maroon faction that lowering taxes would destabilise the economy . To me it seems the economy is already unstable with both inflation and unemployment rising despite a flood of cheap Labour with a huge Social cost .. What do you think and what do you make of the claim of Cameron and Osbourne that their opposition between lower tax and economic stability was not a lie but can be understood in the light of dangerous national debt ?Is there any sense in this I have assumed not thus far ? .
Rammalammadingdong - You can be as boring as you like . Conceited and humourless is not something you can get away with anywhere else so why do you imagine you can here . ( C if you prefer me to dress my remarks in some meretricious faux scholarship let me know .
It wouldn’t be hard)
newmaniac...
"There's terrific merit in having no sense of humour, no sense of irony, practically no sense of anything at all. If you're born with these so-called defects you have a very good chance of getting to the top." - Peter Cook
Just a quick one from Ronnie, his Eleventh Commandment : "Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow conservative".
We're all on the same side, and - /broadly/ - singing off the same hymnsheet, so maybe a deep breath and a pause to recognise that, perhaps?
As I've noted here before (I think), the deadliest non-sexual insult one can hurl in these parts is to accuse someone of lacking a sense of humour, and truth be told, I've encountered precious few of my countrymen where that is true. Ok, we laugh at different things, but..
Meanwhile, I'm doing 18 Doughty St on Thursday, so maybe ripping the piss out of me in advance is in order?
Do fuck off C !
Another yellow sock fest?
btw did you know that jazz singer george melly has a fetish for women in socks?
A bizzare but true fact.
PH - You can count on it.
That's pretty bizarre. Do you know he was guest vocalist on a Stranglers B-side?
Mr rum bum and concertina himself ?
+:
I notice that Guido has "politely "requested Rammykin ceases "debating" on his blog. His heart seems absolutely in the right place politically but there is a flaw in your logic on GSOH C. The inapplicability is exceedingfully certain eh what. Still you are probably right and I would suggest an early meeting when the two of you can discuss business studies and philosophy until the wee hours . Allow me to craft your involuntary rhapsody “Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, But to be young was very heaven! …” oh lucky man ………..think hospital bed ………..
PHITCH again this disturbing gay theme George Melly was , was he not , an iron hoof , hence his preference for rum bum and concertina over the traditional trinity. I have all the Stranglers record somewhere and cannot recall any lightweight Jazz crooning .
My fave is “something better change “ which we played in my crappy band.
C I `m afraid I have a subsequent engagement on the very moment of your elevation to media stardom. It was merely pencilled this morning , but is now tattooed on my chest .
Where is that clever clogs Voyager I would like an answer ? Grrrrrrr
Oh balloons I see I have been pre rum bum and concertinad
All of them N? He guested on the B side to 'Walk on By' (from the Black & White era, circa '78) with 'Old Codger'. Most uncroony it is too. Doubtless everyone knows that Melly had his wicked way with Peregrine Worsthorne at Stowe, or wherever it was?
I possess that very white vinyl platter C and its goodfulness is exceedingly self clarifying. I am also huge Bacharach fan so that was a “Birthday and Christmas in one for me “. Best ever cover ?Also like the relatively recent Costello Bacharach superhero team up. Bit soppy for PHITCH I expect but I `m afraid of my feelings , I can cry I can hug , for my own disgusting agenda obviously . They call it Fauxmosexuality and you might try it .
newmania..
perhaps it is time for you to take a break and reflect upon yourself and your views rather than merely commentating before you think??
but like croydonian said i believe conservatives should show the spirit of kinship.. for we are a broad church afterall are we not?
a possible election victory but the cost is sacrificing 'right' values.. as dickens said 'twas the best of times, twas the worst of times.'
More ! ( also Dickens)The Conservative Party is not a last resort for the socially retarded sententious weirdoes ram jet and you if you know anyone in it , they didn’t avoid you quickly enough .
…but then it is Christmas-ish , Okey dokey Ramjet, I will self contemplate my commentateingfulness with exceeding self mortificatitude. Hell; lets have a day of taking advice from mendicants ….. “ Of course you must have 50p for a cup of tea “
Quite liberating actually
newmania..
Go take a hike, your exceedingly rude..
Finally.
Back to the topic...
A lot of people have flirted with differing political views. Mostly, people in their youth are more inclined towards leftish views, believing that you can change behaviour, and control things top-down.
As Churchill said... "If a man is not a liberal by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain."
Indeed. And Mr Pine is 43 next year...
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